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Talk:Federation Replicator Permissions

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New Data[edit source]

Data currently collected:

Fed Bartenders: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjvDWZaQpmvidGFnZG55aXJrOHd2cUdsYXN5UlFUTmc

Fed Chefs: http://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AjvDWZaQpmvidEY1X3ZkVGxJaUtmZVhfZjRFWWg1Z0E

If you want to help out please contact me in-game @oddboyout. To verify what a DOff permisses you must remove all other chefs and bartenders from your roster. You can do this by storing them in the mail or the exchange. If you have a bartender or chef bound to you, I cannot accept your data as 100% accurate.

Oddboyout 09:58, 12 March 2012 (UTC) (47th Defense Division Special Ops - Deputy Director At Large)

I assume the "N/A"'s in the table indicate the species/rarity combinations that you have no data for yet, correct? In that case, I'd suggest using something else, maybe even just leave them blank, because "N/A" is shorthand for "not applicable" which would imply that that species/rarity combination can't exist. (Except for El-Aurian bartender row, since we know there's only 1 of them in the game and she has a fixed rarity.)
I would also suggest, for the chef table, stating that the spice pudding and fudge are enabled by having any chef in your roster, so they don't have to be listed in every single cell in the table. I know this hasn't been confirmed for every species/rarity combination, but since it has appeared for every species and at both common and uncommon rarities, it seems like a logical extrapolation. Dr ishmael 14:38, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Those are good ideas. Updating the page. :) Oddboyout 04:17, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
I was talking about this in the Doffjobs channel and someone mentioned that he thought that all blue Chefs give Livanian beets. Apparently he'd tried ti with two or more races other than humans. Oh and allegedy a Dosi Chef will give Tulaberries. But AFAIK that's KDF. Oh yeah, if you have a Rare Human Chef, Rokeg Blood pie will be visible but greyed out.--Marhawkman 07:29, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
After datacrunching all of my guys, it looks like all uncommon bartenders might give you Trixian bubble Juice. I've yet to see one that doesn't. Now if only I had more than 2 decent chefs....--Marhawkman 20:38, 14 March 2012 (UTC)
El-Aurian is a special case duty officer and shouldn't be included in the general chart. I corrected this once already and someone changed it back. I had also added a complete list of the all major races with chefs/bartenders posted in alphabetical order because additions were being posted at random. The reasoning for this was to provide a framework for posting, prevent having to rework listings later, and to easily show gaps in knowledge. Although you may have started this page it is still a community authored wiki. I appreciate the work being done here but I sincerely suggest that if you are going to post wiki pages that the information be as accurate and organized as possible and that you are knowledgeable in the subject. After viewing your google doc list, that doesn't appear to be the case, as it is incorrect. It includes races that are not Federation, that are unique duty officer races, and races that have no bartender/chef whatsoever. I suggest a title change and/or corrections to the list. Errors such as those bring into question the integrity of the information on the wiki page.
Dosi is KDF and the uncommon chef does produce Tulaberry (not Tulaberries) I can verify because I have one. I have quite a few green and better chefs and bartenders and I will post the info as soon as I can isolate my duty officers (one is injured atm). I also plan on purchasing as many others as I can in order to complete the information in both charts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Penclrtist (talk · contr)
I also am trying to see what I can find. I actually bought a caitian chef just to see what they can give you. But..... I dislike the idea of seperating out races simply because they aren't readily available. the only thing "unique" about Rulian is that you can't get El-Aurians at random. Otherwise there's nothing special about her.--Marhawkman 20:42, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree Rulian is nothing special but there is no El-Aurian race per se... its just her. So it seems logical to me that it shouldn't be included in a general list. One case cannot speak for the whole race. If there were more then I would say sure put the race it on the list. It seems there is a going to be a disagreement on this point so I might have to get a moderator/admin involved.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.244.98.122 (talk · contr)
There are other El Aurian doffs; Rulian is simply the only one that affects the replicator. The point of the "special" table should be to list doffs that are not bartenders/chefs but can affect the replicator. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.gif 21:22, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Ok then... I will submit it to moderator for resolution. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.244.98.122 (talk · contr)
Why? This is not an administrative situation, this is a situation that should be resolved by consensus. Also, please indent and sign your posts. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.gif 21:33, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
Alright whatever. You run your own wiki and you know more about this than I do. I just thought since Rulian was a unique case and Dathan was a unique case we could have just one "special" category instead of two. Also there is no common, uncommon, or rare El-Aurian's. I think that combined with my above statements should be a sufficiently obvious and convincing argument for removing the El-Aurian category from the general table. Furthermore, I spent a lot of time and effort putting a complete alphabetical listing of all the duty officers only to have it deleted. It didn't take much time to put up but I did all the research to insure its accuracy. Either way I think I am done. I'm not mad or emo... I am just not going to put anymore time/work into it if its just gonna get deleted everytime someone disagrees with an edit. PS - I added a unique duty officer category and added headers to the tables. I'm sure if you don't like it then you will delete it. 70.244.98.122 23:12, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
I have no problem with Rulian Mazan listed separately, and it does look good how it is right now under Unique DOffs. --- I have no problem listing all the non-unique races in the tables from the get go, your changes were not taken out by me. --- My initial discussion post was meant as a way to verify information. I'm sorry I was too commanding. --- The reason my doc spreadsheet has all the races listed is just to be completionist. I hadn't intended to list any race until I had information for it. My spreadsheet is not this page. Oddboyout 03:59, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
I am indenting under your post as the talk page is getting a bit to the right. I am surprised that Indent Police hasn't mailed you about it yet. :) I saw the edits so I know who removed it and didn't place an explanation in the talk page as to why per wiki guidelines. There is nothing wrong with having your own personal spreadsheet and doing it anyway you want. I just think if you are going to link it then it should be more accurate. I apologize if it came off sounding harsh.

Fed/KDF split necessary?[edit source]

I'm thinking that the Fed/KDF split isn't really necessary. The specific items that a chef enables is more than likely specific to the species and rarity, not their faction. The only real example currently on the tables is the uncommon Klingon chef, who enables the same items for both factions. A couple more corroborating examples would be nice, of course, but it's a valid deduction to make at this point.

I think these could be combined into a single page, and we simply add the faction icon before the species name to show which factions can acquire that species of doff. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.gif 19:50, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

As for one list... not sure on that as it would be quite large (something like 45 separate races for each category = 90). They are already split and there is a link at the top so my vote is leave as it is. If page length is not a concern then why just not include it under the replicator page. 70.244.98.122 00:14, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
I set them up separately because I had no idea if they were different or not. And I have yet to confirm that, though it's likely they are the same. Oddboyout 03:42, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Listing Universal Permissions[edit source]

How should we list permissions that are given no matter the species? We already know I'danian Spice Pudding and Jimbalian Fudge are available from any Common+ Chef, but now it's looking like all Uncommon+ Bartenders permiss Trixian Bubble Juice (maybe Rare+ Bartenders Aldebaran Whiskey). Should it be written out, or could it be added to the table? Oddboyout 05:12, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I noticed it. I didn't want to make assumptions and delete them just yet. It does appear that that is going to be the case tho. --Penclrtist 06:37, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
I like the way it is listed already. Add a blurb before the table about it and keep the Table short with mostly specific info.--Marhawkman 06:49, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
If the information on the table is correct then the Uncommon Cardassian is an exception. If there is one exception then there may be more. At the very least I think we need to verify the Cardassian before we make that assumption. I don't like making assumptions on the wiki period but there seems to be a lot of evidence that all of them have Triaxian Bubble Juice on the uncommon, and if it is not the case, an erroneous assumption is not disastrous as many people would probably not be looking for a doff with that replicatable. Oops forgot to sign the post :/ --Penclrtist 07:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
The Uncommon and Rare Cardassian Bartenders definitely need another source to verify. That's some of the first data I received (not observed). It's probable the people who had them also had Rulian Mazan and hadn't taken her off their roster. Oddboyout 10:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm comfortable with adding a blurb about Trixian bubble juice, but I'd keep it in the chart anyways. There's no point in blanking those entries. Most of the grid positions would still be there as we have confirmed negatives for most of the commons of those races.--Marhawkman 16:10, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Species Common Uncommon Rare Very Rare
All
Human

This is what I have in mind. For species like Andorian who don't yet seem to award anything special, we don't even have to list them on the table. We'll put a blurb before the table saying "All Chefs allow replication of a set of food items regardless of species. Common and Uncommon Chefs allow I'danian Spice Pudding and Jimbalian Fudge. Along with those two items, Rare and Very Rare Chefs also permiss Thalian Chocolate Mousse and Livanian Beet. Except Klingons, all Rare and Very Rare Chefs show a greyed out Klingon Rokeg Blood Pie." And there would be something similar for the Bartender table. Oddboyout 06:27, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I like that idea. I was thinking of something similar myself. There is one anomaly I know of, but it's a minor issue. UNcommon or better Vulcan bartenders give Vulcan spice tea. I have no idea why common vulcans don't but they don't.... Also with this approach we can merge Rulian back into the regular bartender list. It appears that Tranya is from ANY purple bartender! I'd suspected as much but wasn't sure earlier.
I was also thinking of the exact same thing. A minor design issue is that I think the "All" row should look distinct from the actual table header, while also being distinct from the rest of the table, but I don't know how to do that. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.gif 14:25, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
An "ALL" category at this stage is a bit premature as there are races that we don't even have ONE example for. (I just now added a Rigelian bartender category) This was part of the reason I listed them all to begin with. A notation is probably the way to go anyway. The permissions are based on rarity with additional premissions based on race/rarity.
Klingon Rokeg Blood Pie is likely a bug and possibly, the Vulcan Spiced Tea. (I verified and corrected the Vulcan common listed on the chart as it was incorrect) I will talk to Heretic about it the next time I see him. Probably throw in a bug report as well.
The proposed "ALL" category is essentially permissions based on rarity. Since Rulian's permissions follow this pattern it would place her in this category as well thus removing her from the chart completely. In which case it would be prudent to make a notation to that effect... and if your going to do that... then why not leave the unique category as it is? --70.246.173.37 07:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Further simplifications[edit source]

It looks like there are a lot of simplifications we can make. In addition to what we noted above, that there are certain items that are allowed by (almost) all Chefs/Bartenders of the same rarity, it also appears that items are cumulative over rarity; i.e. any rare Chef will always add all the same items as common and uncommon Chefs of the same species, and possibly additional items for being rare.

Taking those into account, and assuming for the moment that all empty table cells follow the pattern with adding any items specific to that species+rarity, I can simplify the Bartender table to:

Species Common Uncommon Rare Very Rare
All
Cardassian
Ferengi
Human
Vulcan

Obviously with a note on Cardassian that Cardassian Bartenders do not provide the generic Bartender permissions.

I know we still need to verify all possible species+rarity combinations, but we could move the complete table to a subpage "/Research" and then drastically simplify the final display of the information. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.gif 14:52, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I like that approach. It works pretty well.
As far as I know we still need secondary confirmation on the Cardassians. Information may be incorrect. I assume you mean move existing page and simplify the public page? I am fine with that as long as there is a link to working page (either on the public page or its talk page). Also, I created a Holographic Duty Officers page. Since it is a replicator permission (via cxp/rank unlock) I would like to add link at the bottom of the page. --Penclrtist 15:44, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
I assume you mean move existing page and simplify the public page? Yep, that's exactly what I meant. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.gif 15:52, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
FYI - Got a hold of a couple (green and blue) of Cardassians today. They are NOT an exception they follow same pattern as all the rest. --Penclrtist 13:11, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
Excellent idea! Let's do it! I've been mulling over this as well, but was worried it might be too confusing. I've been trying to figure out a good way of indicating that an item can be replicated by a common and above or rare and above DOff on a table. Can we do something like put a + next to the rarity in the table heading (Common+, Uncommon+, Rare+)? We need to come up with a succinct description above the table. Oddboyout 18:11, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Species Common Uncommon Rare Very Rare
All
  • Add I'danian Spice Pudding icon.pngCommon icon.png+Jimbalian Fudge icon.pngCommon icon.png
  • Add Thalian Chocolate Mousse icon.pngCommon icon.png+Livanian Beet icon.pngCommon icon.png
Human
  • Add Banana Split icon.pngCommon icon.png
  • Add Banana Split icon.pngCommon icon.png
  • Add Banana Split icon.pngCommon icon.png

My take on a more graphical version. --Dukedom 18:31, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

That's pretty cool. I've been thinking about how to do a paragraph form.--Marhawkman 20:43, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Good idea but I think I would do it something more like this. If you were looking for a specific food and had to hover over every icon to see what it is would be a pain in the ass. --70.246.173.37 02:04, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Adding a chef to a ships crew allows additional food items to be replicated. The items that can be replicated are determined by two factors, rarity and race. The rarity permissions are the same for all chefs of like quality. Certain races allow even more items to be replicated in addition to the rarity permissions. 
Species Common Uncommon Rare Very Rare
Rarity Bonus

I'danian Spice Pudding icon.pngCommon icon.png Jimbalian Fudge icon.pngCommon icon.png

I'danian Spice Pudding icon.pngCommon icon.png Jimbalian Fudge icon.pngCommon icon.png

I'danian Spice Pudding icon.pngCommon icon.png Jimbalian Fudge icon.pngCommon icon.pngThalian Chocolate Mousse icon.pngCommon icon.png Livanian Beet icon.pngCommon icon.png

I'danian Spice Pudding icon.pngCommon icon.png Jimbalian Fudge icon.pngCommon icon.pngThalian Chocolate Mousse icon.pngCommon icon.png Livanian Beet icon.pngCommon icon.png

Klingon
Klingon

Klingon Gagh icon.pngCommon icon.png Klingon Racht icon.pngCommon icon.png Klingon Rokeg Blood Pie icon.pngCommon icon.png

Klingon Gagh icon.pngCommon icon.png Klingon Racht icon.pngCommon icon.png Klingon Rokeg Blood Pie icon.pngCommon icon.png

Blood Wine icon.pngUncommon icon.png Klingon Gagh icon.pngCommon icon.png Klingon Racht icon.pngCommon icon.png Klingon Rokeg Blood Pie icon.pngCommon icon.png Klingon Grapok Sauce icon.pngUncommon icon.png Klingon Gladst icon.pngUncommon icon.png Klingon Octopus icon.pngUncommon icon.png

Blood Wine icon.pngUncommon icon.png Klingon Gagh icon.pngCommon icon.png Klingon Racht icon.pngCommon icon.png Klingon Rokeg Blood Pie icon.pngCommon icon.png
Klingon Grapok Sauce icon.pngUncommon icon.png Klingon Gladst icon.pngUncommon icon.png Klingon Octopus icon.pngUncommon icon.png

Using only iconlinks opposed to icons and textlinks has two advantages: First even chefs with multiple additions (i.e. Ferengi) won't take up that much space at all. And second it's very easy to condense the information further. You have a lot more and easier leeway toying with the size of the iconlinks than having to deal with text formatting inside a table. --Dukedom 08:24, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Unfortunately, icons suffer from the huge drawback that not everyone will recognize them on sight. I'd rather have a bulkier table of text that I can comprehend immediately than a table of icons where I have to mouseover every one to know what it is. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.gif 14:21, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Tables are a communication tool. If done correctly they have the ability to quickly and clearly convey large amounts of information to a wide audience that may or may not be familiar with the subject matter. Condensation of information is great but not at the expense of functionality. I agree with Dr. Ishmael.
Imagine you have been playing STO for one week and you get a doff mission requiring a food item you cant afford and you want to see what doff makes it. Somebody gives you a link to this page. Is the information you are looking for better presented as words or as icons? For an example of this look at this wiki page Consumable/Food. Ask yourself, "is this easy to use?" --70.246.173.37 14:51, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
*Reformatted example table for comparison
You kind of undermine yourself with that argument - if you find an assignment in-game that requires an item you don't have, then you already know the icon because it's shown on the assignment. In that case the icons would be helpful.
The obvious compromise would be to include small icons with the text. Although that would be bulkier than either on their own, it would also provide the benefits of both. —Dr Ishmael User Dr ishmael Diablo the chicken.gif 15:17, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Another thing to consider: iconlinks mirror the way it shows up ingame. And there is no 'easy' way to scale textlinks like I just did in the example table. --Dukedom 15:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Yeah I like the chart of pictures. We could further simplify it by adding a note to the table that each rank has the ability to create anything that a lower rank can. This saves space by not requiring duplicates of lower teired items. It also makes the chart easier to absorb at a glance. As a compromise thoug we could have a paragraph form description of the table that has text links to all the races and items in it.--Marhawkman 01:38, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

oh yeah.... 70.246.173.37 of 255.255.255.255 needs to get a real username....--Marhawkman 01:38, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

I appreciate your opinion but:
1) no requirement for a an account
2) this is not the place to discuss it if there was
3) you already stated as much on my talk page and I responded
4) I signed up for an account and my real name is (drumroll please)...
--User 12.345.56.789 19:42, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

Delete default items and link to Replicator?[edit source]

The replicator has all of the default replicatables listed so the information is redundant. The default items, though informative, do not really fit page topic. Deletion and a link to replicator page will make the page shorter and more specific. What do you guys think? Forgot to sign this one too. >.< Sorry still new. --Penclrtist 07:33, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I disagree. On a slightly related note, has anybody encountered a cap on items added to your replicator yet? --Dukedom 07:36, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Its OK to disagree but it would be better if you posted a reason why per wiki guidelines. STOWiki:Wikiquette Thanks in advance. Not experienced a cap as yet and I have 5 of each. --70.244.98.122 07:59, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
the food/drink part of the Replicator stuff is relevent here, so I'd keep it here.--Marhawkman 16:10, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
The point I am trying to make is that, as a user, what information am I looking for if I go to a page titled Replicator Permissions? Anyone looking up this information plays the game and has a replicator and thus already knows what their replicator can make. They are looking to make something else and wants to find a doff to do it. So in that case, this informaton, though relevant, gets in the way of finding the information they really want. A link would still provide access to the information if it was desired while only making a small impact on the page itself. --Penclrtist 22:35, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
As a long-time wiki collaborator, my first thought is that if we take it out people will get confused. I suppose it could be moved to the bottom though.--Marhawkman 23:12, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Mid-Long Term Goal should be to condense the information and possible merge to the original Replicator page. --Dukedom 08:40, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I agree the information should be as concise as possible (thus the suggestion) but adding this page, the Klingon page and the hologram page would be a bit much though I think. Guess we'll see once all the information is collected. --Penclrtist 10:50, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

REMOVED - These duty officers require active duty slotting before their item(s) becomes replicatable. Slotting will no longer be required after tomorrows patch. --70.246.173.37 22:57, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

Do you have to keep them?[edit source]

Do you have to keep the duty officer to retain the permission or is acquisition enough? I haven't seen this addressed anywhere. Rayfire 00:20, 23 October 2012 (UTC)